(SOUNDBITE OF PHONE RINGING)
ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
How many hours of your life would you say you've spent doing this?
AUTOMATED VOICE #1: Tell me - how can I help you today?
SHAPIRO: Operator.
AUTOMATED VOICE #2: For all other inquiries, say customer service or press five.
SHAPIRO: Customer service.
AUTOMATED VOICE #2: Sorry, I didn't hear you. Please select the option that's right for you.
SHAPIRO: Human.
AUTOMATED VOICE #3: Our system is currently unavailable. Please try your call again later.
SHAPIRO: Rather than spend the rest of the program trapped in this doom loop, let's talk to someone leading the Biden administration's effort to end it. Neera Tanden is director of the White House Domestic Policy Council. Thank you for being a real human on the line with us this afternoon.
NEERA TANDEN: Always. Always a human.
SHAPIRO: Customer service doom loops are just one small part of this new initiative. The White House is calling this collection of new rules Time Is Money, and you make lots of promises here. The White House says it'll be easier to get refunds, cancel subscriptions, talk to a human. How do you actually make the private sector go along with these plans?
TANDEN: Well, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is engaging in a rulemaking process, which will basically create rules of the road. And we see many ways in which companies are wasting both people's time and their money with practices that are really designed to ensure that the company is able to hold onto your money more. And so basically the way that it will work is that the FCC will put out rulemaking that says that the companies are supposed to say, for example, make it as easy to cancel a subscription as it is to get a subscription. So a good example to me is, you know, when you're doing a subscription, a streaming service or a cellphone service, if it's, you know, one or two clicks to get the service, it should be one or two clicks to get rid of the service.
SHAPIRO: What is excessive and what is reasonable is ultimately in the eye of the beholder, right? So if a bank wants to steer a customer to the right person by providing a menu of options on the phone, is it really the federal government's role to say that is a waste of people's time?
TANDEN: It's - so I want to be really clear here. There's nothing here that says you can't have a chatbot. It just - we're just saying, you know, you should be able to get to a human, you know, press a button, zero, and get to a human quickly.
SHAPIRO: The Chamber of Commerce, which represents many different companies across many different sectors, objects to these proposals. Sean Heather from the Chamber called it, quote, "an attempt to micromanage businesses' pricing structures, often undermining businesses' ability to give consumers options at different price points." How do you respond to that?
TANDEN: I would say that, fundamentally, we think that this should be a baseline consumer protection. I think what I would say to the Chamber is that we've heard from companies. We've heard from companies in the health care field who want to, you know, get rid of these crazy billing systems where you have to do things via fax or do everything via - you know, print out the paperwork, you know, fill it all out, and then send it in. Those are practices that are really designed to waste a lot of people's time. And we've actually heard from insurance companies that would like to get rid of those practices, but they worry that if they're a good actor that other companies will hold onto consumers in a way that basically makes them lose money. So these are baseline rules of the road that we think actually reflect a well-functioning market. If your business model relies on trapping people into services they no longer need, that's a reflection on how you're not competitive, and you're not giving a good service. And companies should compete on services, not on hurdles.
SHAPIRO: These proposals also build on the White House's effort to get rid of hidden fees. And I'm curious about the definition - 'cause I recently stayed at a hotel that added a resort fee, which included, among other things, Wi-Fi and the use of board games in the lobby. And the hotel said I was not being charged a hidden fee. I was paying for specific services like Wi-Fi and board games. So are the definitions inevitably murky here?
TANDEN: Well, what we're really saying is that fees like that need to be up front. You need to be able to see those fees. Those fees need to be transparent to you when you are making a decision on a hotel. The president calls these practices really making a sucker out of people is when they - you sign up for a hotel. You think this is the price you're paying. And then later on, they tell you there's a resort fee. If you knew that up front, you would have just added that cost to the cost of the hotel. And then another competitor didn't have that resort fee - you might have gone there because we know that actually what consumers do is that they really just look at the price of the good. And when there's a hidden fee like that, it's kind of a way that some of these companies are really false advertising what the price of their good is, and that's what's wrong (ph).
SHAPIRO: OK, last question - I know the White House frames this proposal as a public service to the American people. It is also possible to view it as a revenge fantasy for any time one of us has been caught in customer service quicksand and wanted to throw our phone or computer at the wall. So Neera Tanden, can you tell me about one experience you have personally had that would have gone differently if these rules had been in place?
TANDEN: Oh, yes. I can absolutely do that. I had a subscription. It was to an outlet. I won't say which one. It was definitely not NPR.
SHAPIRO: You mean like clothes shopping kind of outlet?
TANDEN: No, no, no, no. It was a newspaper. But I will say it was definitely not NPR.
SHAPIRO: It was a newspaper. OK. It was a news organization...
TANDEN: And I...
SHAPIRO: ...Subscribed to a newspaper.
TANDEN: ...Tried to cancel, and it took me 45 minutes of waiting on the phone. Now, that particular outlet, it was two clicks to sign up but 45 minutes of waiting on the phone. And then after the 45 minutes, it was five minutes of the person trying to negotiate with me, not actually canceling the subscription. So I literally had to say three times - three times - after that length of time that I actually am an intelligent adult who knew that I would like to end the subscription. So I would say that, you know, I had time to do that.
SHAPIRO: It's not like you work at the White House or anything (laughter) in a senior role (ph).
TANDEN: (Laughter) But, you know, whatever. I'm - I - like, me, I can have the time. What the real problem of these practices are is that you're a single mom with two kids. Your time at home is precious. When you're at home, you have to take care of your kids. You can't really be on the phone for 45 minutes just waiting. I mean, that really - there is a huge cost to you to do that. And I think that's one of the problems with these practices. Essentially, they create such a friction on people that they just give up and keep paying the service instead of ending a service they don't want and then getting a service they do want, right? You know, the fundamental concept here for everyone, including our friends in business, is just making the market work better.
SHAPIRO: And now vengeance is yours.
TANDEN: (Laughter) I'd just like to be clear for the record that I am not about vengeance in any way, shape or form.
SHAPIRO: (Laughter) Noted. Neera Tanden is domestic policy adviser to President Biden. Thank you so much.
TANDEN: Thank you so much.
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