MICHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: What is a democracy, and who gets to lead it? Now, that might sound like these are questions that were resolved for this country in 1788, when the U.S. Constitution was ratified, or in 1865, when the Civil War ended. But our next guest says they really weren't, because we still haven't fully resolved the questions about what this democracy is and who it's for, and he says we need to. Theodore R. Johnson is the author of "If We Are Brave: Essays From Black Americana," and he's with us now in our studios in Washington. Thank you so much for joining us.
THEODORE R JOHNSON: Thank you for having me. It's really good to be here.
MARTIN: Your book is a lot of things. It's a sermon. It's a challenge. It's a warning. And you say that unity at the ballot box is not confirmation that Black voters hold the same views on every issue, but that they hold the same view on the most consequential - racial equality. You say that the Black electoral monolith only exists as evidence of a critical defect in America's practice of democracy. And you say that that defect is the space our two-party system makes for racial intolerance and the appetite our electoral politics has for the exploitation of racist ideas. The electoral solidarity of Black voters is an immune response. But you also say that, sort of to your thesis, that, you know, Black Americans often reveal something that is specific to them, but is true of the whole. You say that Black Americans are canaries in the democratic coal mine, the first to detect when the air is foul, signaling the danger that lies ahead. But what does that have to do with other people? Why should other people care about this who are not Black Americans?
JOHNSON: Right. Look, when the country was founded in the first presidential election, 1789, 1790, George Washington, 6% of the people in this country were eligible to vote. They were all white men. Propertied, for the most part. And that's democracy, when only 6% of the people can participate? And so even as democracy has grown, the growth of our democracy has come at the demands of the people that were left out of it. If you look at voter suppression tactics across the country, these often have disproportionate negative impacts on Black people and Hispanic people. And if you think those measures will never touch you, you're wrong. It has class effects. It has effects by ZIP code, rural versus urban, and race is the best indicator of what tactics folks are using to remove others from the ballot box.
MARTIN: Do you find it encouraging, then, that there's a recent NAACP poll, for example, that showed that a quarter of young Black men say that they are voting for or lean toward Donald Trump? That Black men over 50 are adhering to traditional patterns - they tend to be committed to voting for the Democratic candidate, in this case, Kamala Harris - but that young Black men, you know, as many as a quarter in this one poll, say that they're leaning or committed to voting for Donald Trump. Do you find that encouraging?
JOHNSON: No, I don't. (Laughter) I don't find that encouraging at all. No, look, there's such a thing as competition for Black voters, which I absolutely want. That is my politics, both parties competing for the Black vote. But I want parties that are civil, that are reasonable, that are compassionate to the public, that want to do the best good for the most people and not just for their side. So the fact that a number of young Black men, 1 in 4-ish, are thinking about supporting Trump or the Republican Party isn't surprising, and it's actually in keeping with how things have been since the '60s.
I think the part that's troubling is, one, Trump is not your average Republican over the last six decades. He is an anomaly of sorts, and has completely changed the party. Two, these younger Black folks tend to be millennial, or they are millennials, Gen Z, which is a generation or two removed from our grandparents. I'm Gen X, grandparents that grew up in the Deep South, Jim Crow, lived through the Civil Rights Movements. My parents, as well. And so that distance from the last time Black solidarity literally changed the country I think creates space for appeals, even from folks like Trump and the Republican Party. The last bit on this is there's political science research that shows while millennials and Gen Z may not be abandoning the Democratic Party for Republican Party, they do feel less loyalty to the Democratic Party. And I think you're seeing the leading edge of that decreasing loyalty among younger people with Black men.
MARTIN: Well, why isn't that a positive sign, though? I mean, it says that the party is competing for these young men's attention and votes, even if they're not competing in a way that you would prefer. There are messages about masculinity that they find attractive. There are messages about self-reliance that they find attractive.
JOHNSON: Right. And so if Donald Trump was Booker T. Washington, I would celebrate that self-determination and sort of leaning into economic self-sufficiency. But we're talking about a man who says Black people in Ohio are eating cats and dogs. That's not the kind of Republican Party that you want to be able to sway young Black men to the side. So it's not the party - you know, the Republican Party in and of itself. It is what it's become under Donald Trump. It's not conservative ideology around size of government, role of national security or America in the world, role of the economy, et cetera. It is that you've got this figure who espouses racist things. If that attracts young Black men, we have a bigger problem than the one, you know, we had maybe a decade ago.
MARTIN: I mean, you begin the book by talking about the Black church. And you link that - your experience of the Black church - with ideals about democracy. Now, it's kind of a complicated idea, but the way I read it is that being a citizen in a democracy requires a kind of faith.
JOHNSON: Yes.
MARTIN: Do you want to talk more about that?
JOHNSON: Yeah, absolutely. Democracy is an article of faith. Its legitimacy is determined by people's belief in the system to work. If the people lose faith in democracy, democracy is no good.
MARTIN: What I hear you saying is you are calling on Americans to be brave and to recommit to this idea of a democracy that includes everybody. And your argument is, as an argument of faith, that it'll be better. It'll be better for everybody. But what if you don't believe? Like, who - what's your evidence?
JOHNSON: No, no, not that it will be better, but that if it's going to be better, it's going to require us to make it better. And this is - I think it's the main point here. Too many folks think our country and our system of government is inevitable - that no matter who we elect, that no matter what the people feel, that democracy is going to create equality and better outcomes for everyone. And it's not true. Democracy can do very antidemocratic and inhumane things. We've seen it. So I'm not suggesting that democracy is the answer and that good fortune is inevitable, that we're going to succeed. I'm saying if we're not brave, it's going to collapse. And it's going to be terrible not just for Black people, but for the whole country. So the book is a challenge, as much as it is an argument for people believing in the system, and using it to include more folks and create better outcomes for all.
MARTIN: Theodore Johnson is the author of, most recently, "If We Are Brave: Essays From Black Americana." Ted Johnson, thank you so much for talking with us.
JOHNSON: Thank you for having me.
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